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Author: GymMachine
Date: 12-03-02 19:15
lol..im not dissing you at all...i just think you confuse fat loss and fat oxidation...i am already at my target goal and actually below...like i said im 5'10 and 150 pounds...i dont think there are wrong ways and right ways...calorie deficit + exercise = weight loss...sure we can delve into glycogen and when we should eat, but for the majority of this board it really doesnt matter....i know you dont believe in eating after cardio and you know i disagree with that (metablosim is still raised through the EPOC system, despite eating or not) and i do not understand why we want the glycogen to come from our muscle post workout for up to an hour and not replacing it immediatly after exercise (yes we will still lose fat from that EPOC system!): and if this anabolic to catabolic theory is correct (which im sure it is) its to do with fat loss!...but as you know fat loss is minimal during high intesnity training - we primarily use glycogen - its about raising the metabolism off the charts AND wether u eat or not afterwards your excessive post oxygen reuptake consumption is still high for a following 24-48 hours ...the eating replaces lost glycogen from muscle because lets face it, muscle is our metabolism.....plus the coritisol carries on wihtout supplementation afterward among other catabolic hormones....so why be in such a catabolic state? we will still oxidise fat from the EPOC system, eating afterwards is for lost glycogen from muscle...but that is our difference of opinion....like i said im below my 'scientifically calculated' ideal weight, so it does work.....im not knocking Bill he is a great marketer and things obviously work for him, in years of learning the stuff i read his material with alot of 'i believe, possibly, perhaps' kind of attitude about the human anatomy is kind of limited...iv been to the learning tree for 4 years and am i qualified PT so i have had the oppurtunity to read across many forms of literature...i know we will disagree on everything with this but for this board the technicalities arent really useful....remember the genral population can reach target modest goals from a calorie deficit and exercise...interval training to 45 minutes on a stepper they will still lose weight....and honestly i dont think people are interested on all the glycogen kind of talk, they want simplicity to know how to get the job done.
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-03-02 20:25
and i do not understand why we want the glycogen to come from our muscle post workout for up to an hour and not replacing it immediatly after exercise
Because, the fat burning continues beyond the cardio when you do high intensity--and you are being counter productive if you put glycogen there. I have already explained this much to you anyway and it goes over your head it seems...but if you put glucogen in when it is nicely burning the fat for an hour at a higher rate than when you are doing low intensity workout, why would you then want to switch that to glycogen burning by putting glcogen there. I prefer it to come out of my fat stores for an hour...you need to read that study I posted. It explains in great depth. I am talking about "fat loss" from the body here---and that is all people want at the end of the day--not fancy terms about fat oxidation or whatever.
I am sorry if you perceive that you don't diss anything I say. It reads that way at this end, and I am really tired of it to be honest. If all people have differences of opinion, let's just get down to giving them without implying that others are wrong or have a naive view of what the other persons is..because right now--you may have reached your goals .. and quite frankly how long it took I don't know...this is unimportant to me. I may have only started dieting and losing weight lately, but it does not mean I have nothing intelligent to contribute here. Men may have the ability to grow bigger muscles, release more testosterone, but that has absolutely NO bearing on whether they can educate any better than w woman can about it.
A lot of woman who come here want to be lean and toned---and although you say they need to build muscle mass, they are able to bulk up more if they follow the wrong advice. To a woman just being lean and fit is sometimes all they want--and the whole muscle thing is a turn off. Women need to see fat loss and good results for their hard work. Blokes are often going for the big but toned look. These are very different.
I am not going to go tit for tat with you about whom is right here either. I know there is a Gym machine fan club...but I would like to post without being mocked in some way. Just state your opinion without referring to my posts in such a way and make it clear that it is your opinion, but I would appreciate coming out of a few more threads looking less like a dumb blonde please.
I do like to leave the board feeling supported and like I have supported people and these days I am not going away from here feeling like that and all I am saying is that the majoirty of the time, it is because of something you have said sharply. As much as others post here saying they cannot see it---think about it. Yes you give good advice, but many others do also. We all need to be massaging eachothers confidence not taking chips out of it here.
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Author: Ang
Date: 12-03-02 21:36
I, as, a woman am irritated that you would turn this into a duel of the sexes. I have read this debate for days, and have read nothing implying your sexes inability to better relay information coming from GymMachine's posts. He nicely sumed up the probable opinion of most on this board. Simple is best, all else gets confusing. Realize that when you post on this board you are introducing all of the members to your debates. Can this please be the conclusion?
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Author: Deb
Date: 12-03-02 22:51
Ang wrote:
>
> I, as, a woman am irritated that you would turn this
> into a duel of the sexes. I have read this debate for days,
> and have read nothing implying your sexes inability to better
> relay information coming from GymMachine's posts. He nicely
> sumed up the probable opinion of most on this board. Simple
> is best, all else gets confusing. Realize that when you post
> on this board you are introducing all of the members to your
> debates. Can this please be the conclusion?
Its only my opinion that we dont really need any one person, nicely or not so nicely summing up this boards opinions.
Opinions are wonderful for us to express. Expressing them helps us to grow and value the words we need to express because we didnt get enough appreciation for them when we were children. Even if we sometimes make mistakes and say things we believe are truth. Thats all ok to do. Someone can kindly give us their views in reply.
Whats not ok, is minimizing someone elses. Thats just abuse.
It comes from an attempt to try to FEEL right by trying to make someone else look wrong.
We are all attempting to grow and heal by expressing our views. Showing respect towards anothers attempt to express themselves makes it a safe place for all to experience being appreciated.
We treat ourselves the way we treat others. The anger we are expressing towards anyone elses opinion or lack or research, or resentment because the opinion wasnt expressed the way it, "SHOULD" have been expressed is really a reflection of how in tollerant we are of and resentful we feel within ourselves.
The only real reason we try to convince others of anything is in an attempt to feel safer in the world. Its a myth, "If you think the way I do, I'll feel safer - I wont feel so alone" We really are trying to fill a void.
Sorry if I wrote this twice but I had a liiltle pc problem. DEB
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Author: Derrick
Date: 12-04-02 03:37
I think everyones opinion is welcomed. But, when you decide to voice your opinion, you are opening up room for debate. We are all looking for opinions, and advice because that's all we can give each other. If I see someone make a statement I don't agree with, or would like to know their reason behind it, I'll say so. Anne-Marie posted to a topic I posted yesterday. She realized she misunderstood exactly what I was saying, and that was that! She made her comments, and even though I disagreed with her, that's no big deal. I'm not mad at her for voicing her opinion or advice. I just voiced mine in return to what she stated. I think that's all GymMac ever does when it comes to having a difference of opinion. I have disagreed with him before, and he never came off as if he knows everything. We stated our opinions, and moved on. I even asked him why he was so small for his height, and why he wanted to be that size. He just laughed it off and explained why, and that was it. I feel if you don't want anyone to debate you or possibly have a difference of opion, don't post anything. Do you think Richard Simmons, and Billy Blanks have the same exact opinions or would give the same advice! Nope! Look at the difference in their bodies! LOL!!!!!! As for keeping things simple, I totally agree with that! For the AVERAGE person trying to lose weight, all they want to know is how to eat and exercise. Creating a calorie deficit (not including calories burned from exercise), and exercising is all they need to know. Some things just aren't that important. It is said to eat within 2 hours of exercising as a general rule, and that's all I need to know!
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Author: GymMachine
Date: 12-04-02 04:22
yep..as i was always told in school, use the KISS method - Keep it simple stupid!, lol and it goes for much in life....Anne- Marie i have no probs with your posts at all and i think its great you voice an opinion, people can pick apart opinions to make up their own mind....im not going to dwell or argue the whole glycogen point, because really i am satisified with me and how i did things and how i have progressed...thats enough for me, if others wish to take your advice on things thats fine too...we are all here to help one another :)
Id like to thank the responders for support, i think i must come across the wrong way sometimes because i seem to come to grief with this site sometimes....anyway no harms done Anne, if we disagree then we disagree, i just hope we can keep this above board...
P.S - fat oxidation is what makes fat loss possible...the fancy term EPOC, is the whole reason for HIIT training...it raises the metabolism through - Excessive Post Oxygen reuptake COnsumption............ok ok im just messin with ya, just teasin, i think the main thing is people are exercising...wether they eat soon afterwards is irrelevent in the concept of things, i think they should be congratulated...
GymmyMac fan club! i want one! ;)
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Author: melve
Date: 12-04-02 06:12
I personally enjoy reading both Gymmachine and Anne-Marie opinions. I can try both methods and see what works for me. Of course we all know that what works for person A won't necessarily work for person B. Of course we are not all going to have the same viewpoints but like someone else said just take the opposing viewpoint and move on. Keep posting those viewpoints!!!
melve
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Author: Ang
Date: 12-04-02 08:33
The reason I posted was because the argument, it was nolonger a debate, was turning into something that wasn't helpful. When the men can do it better than women thing appeared I got angry.
I'm not trying to speak for everybody, hence the word "PROBABLE". I agree that all should have opinions. Except for me in regards for this issue? I was reiterating what GymMachine had said -most people on this board are not intrested in the science, they want simplicity-and by using the word probable I was not blanketing the boards opinion. I'm sorry to have raised tempers. I always find interesting the things that get peoples back up. Things that should piss people off don't. Things that are meant to be helpful are regarded as oppression. Ok, whatever.......Ang
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Author: Karis
Date: 12-04-02 09:12
I hesitate to post this because I detest conflict and I came to this web site for a safe place to feel supported and to give/receive support from like-minded individuals. However, because I, too, have felt the same feelings expressed by Anne Marie I will throw my two-cents in for what it is worth.
I just think Gym would be less offensive if he would take it down a notch. You know, disagree without being disagreeable. Don't tell people things like "that's absurd even if you're on the gas" or "you must be confused or something". You can simply state your difference of opinion.
Another thing I have noticed is that one person will use one source for their research and the other will use another. If the two sources differ then an argument ensues. Why not just state the facts and agree to disagree without getting testy and attacking the person by calling them "clones, groupies, etc." If you are secure in your wisdom you will not need to resort to this.
Let's support eachother. I know that is what I need desperately!!!!
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Author: kollegekid
Date: 12-04-02 09:49
i agree w/ melve -- i appreciate both viewpoints and i am also going to try both ways. i think that the differences are so small though that it is not a matter of not losing weight or anything, so whatever feels better to people should be done. but thanks to both viewpoints... hope you guys won't be holding any grudges. oh the dramas on this board...
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Author: Karis
Date: 12-04-02 10:01
I, too, enjoy seeing all the many different ideas posted. I just think if someone has a problem with the name-calling it should be stopped. We are adults and can give opinions without resorting to that kind of thing.
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Author: Beserkerfork
Date: 12-04-02 13:10
You'll lose weight either way, most likely.
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