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Author: Derrick
Date: 12-10-02 03:53
I would like for all to understand that, you are free to do any diet you feel you should do. I do not recommend some diets, but there are a lot of diets out there that will make you lose weight. If your only goal is to lose weight, then try the alternative diets. There has been a lot of debate on such alternative diets, like Atkins. I for one have never read the book or books entirely. I may do so just for imformation purposes. What I have read about Atkins deters me from ever suggesting it. That diet is only good for quick weight loss, regardless of what anyone says. It suggests cutting out carbs and eating high protein and fat. The idea is that your body will burn fat instead of carbs for fuel, thus causing weight loss. Well that is true, but long term suggests that is not a safe thing to do. Our bodies are designed to eat certain foods, and nature gives us exactly what we are supposed to have. Everything we eat is supposed to be eaten in it's natural state. If it's not natural, then we shouldn't be eating it. However, society doesn't suggest that. All we seem to want to do is do the fastest thing possible to lose weight. We are quick to agree with anyone who comes up with such diets. That goes with anything else in life. You could steal a pair of shoes because you're broke, rather than wait and buy them. Which one makes more sense. All I'm saying is the Atkins diet has proved that it works. I don't agree with it, but that is MY personal opinion. It seems as though most doctors and nutritionists, believe it's a bad idea as well. None of the health boards, or organizations agree with it. They all say you need a balance of things. So that's what I do. I read something on the Atkins diet that said, some people may need to be a little more active for this to work. That is soooo funny. This diet doesn't even suggest that you should exercise! Well good luck to anyone who chooses to do it. I hope you have good results from it.
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Author: GymMachine
Date: 12-10-02 04:48
im not a big advocate on Atkins either....you may aswell kiss weight training results goodbye from it..sure u get anough protein, but you need carbs as glycogen (that word again lol)....carbs are energy, they arent evil....having said that i do not ingest alot of high carbs in the first place...the only time i eat breads/pastas/rice is on the weekend perhaps...i get my carbs from veggies and ryvita biscuits, some spreads, milk has some and the morning bowl of nutra-grain....oh and post workout meals contain a small spud for high GI response.
Some can go on atkins and lose copious amounts of weight though, but there is that sacrifice on living low carb...your immune system gets a kick in the ass from living low carb...ill admit i wouldnt go with the idea of 20 grams or less of carbs per day but i wouldnt make up 1000 cals of carbs either....i think there is a medium in which you can have energy to fuel an EFFICIENT workout, without overloading on the pastas and such.
I tend to agree that lifestyle modifications are easier to stick to and perhaps thus more permanant....but for those on atkins, and there are alot of them, i do hope they can stick it out for their own sake, but sometimes i question why sacrifice sanity and time (and maybe a little danger?) rather than go subtely and permantly over a long haul....but each to their own, i cannot question what others decide to do - i get into fights on this board that way lol
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Author: melve
Date: 12-10-02 05:50
Derrick,
I dont know if you read my message yesterday but Prevention had a reader in there that had lost weight using the Atkins diet and then once he reached his goal weight, he maintained a healthy diet. Prevention even had a little insert saying when the Atkins first came out they "were not convinced of the merits of the Atkins diet in particular, because of its high level of saturated fats and severe limits on certain types of vegetables, fruit, and diary products." They are now convinced that it is a diet that works because of the success stories they have received. This to me is interesting seeing that a magazine like Prevention is changing their minds on the Atkins diet. Although I could not do the Atkins, I do not knock it in any way since there are so many success stories.
Just my two cents,
melve (big fan of Prevention Magazine)
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Author: Derrick
Date: 12-10-02 06:13
Melve,
In this post, I say clearly that I believe it works. I just don't fully agree with it. I think as long as you cut your calorie intake, eating mostly lean meats, veggies, and grains, along with exercise, you will lose weight. I guarantee it. You have to have strong will power to do any diet, but anyone can do it. If this doesn't work, why have I lost 54 pounds in 6 months? Why have I gained muscle weight? Why have I gotten in great physical shape overall? Why have I not paid someone to tell me how to do this?
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Author: AmyE
Date: 12-10-02 10:08
I'd just like to throw my 2cents in here due to the title of the post "diet" (god I hate that word) No 'diet' will work for long term weight management. If you are eating a certain way JUST to loose some weight, be it all protein, all carb, low cal, low fat, whatever and then once you lose the weight & you go back to what you were doing before the fat WILL come back. To lose weight long term you must first figure out why you eat(and i'm talking about the eating that made you fat not eating for fuel) what triggers your overeating and fix that problem. then you must change your eating (and moving) habits for LIFE. If you dont first fix the "trigger" then when life throws you that 'trigger" (and it will) you will go back to your old habits. Weight loss is not about willpower it is about changing a life times worth of bad habits and turning them into good habits.
Sorry I just had to throw that in cuz I just recently figured it out after years of yo-yo dieting and somehow ending up fatter than before each time. So I have begun working on my inside and my body seems to be following. I am on a program (for lack of a better word) now that I can live with forever!
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Author: Derrick
Date: 12-10-02 10:51
Yes you do have to make a lifestyle change. I don't usually like using the word diet either. The things I was referring to such as the Atkins diet, is what it is, a diet. But you do need will power to get yourself to a point that you do things out of habit. Lifestyle change is just a way of doing things to get yourself to the point of it being a habit.
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 12:44
I was the same as you last week Derrick. I didn't bother reading the book or finding out more because of what I had heard from others. Reading the book actually opened my eyes. I knew I was taking in too many carbs to be honest, and knew I had to drop back, but I am not the sort of person to drop back a little and wait a little while to see if that worked. I needed I felt to deprive myself of them or starve my body of them first and then when in ketosis and successfully losing weight, re introduce various one a little at a time and monitor my weight loss. I am in ketosis now, I can tell because my gob feels like I ate a car battery, and I felt like @!#$ for a few days..that is basically when the body is running out of glycogen and the liver has wasted it all, and between that and switching to fat fuel--you feel awful. But when your body get's into fat burning mode--it improves. Today I feel a little better.
I personally don't think I should be weight training if I am getting by on 20 grams of carbs per day because most people on the Atkins diet are sedentary and don't weight lift. However, I think I can overcome that by following the TKD and just making sure I consume some carbs in the way of a shake 60 minutes before a workout. It is very hard going to the gym and having people look at you after all this time as if you must be going home and pigging out or not doing cardio. I do, but they don't see me half dying doing it when I do it on alternative days at 6am in the morning...so I felt ridiculous. Self conscious..and need to see some fat loss for my own piece of mind really.
I am open to anything that can get 5 lbs of fat or more out in two weeks at the moment. I know that this Induction will accomplish that much for me. I crrently use a forum where they do BFL ANF Atkins low carb combined. There are many out there that needed to also adjust their carb intake but they are still BFL 'ers because they are following the fitness regime that he sets out and all they are doing is reducing the portion of carbs at each sitting and increasing the protein portion a smidgen. :)
Personal Experiment was Monday:
The weights that I lifted with ease last week could not be ligted due to ketosis.
I normally do pyramid sets of 12,10,8,6, and then 12 which fires up the muscles and enables you to lift more. Then I do an isolation of 12 reps on another excercise. However, I did 12,10,8,6 with difficulty and then could not lift more than 9 reps and I felt extremely fatigued. Lesson? I learned that I DO need more carbs than the average person on an Atkins diet since I am working out x6 times per week and doing three of those sessions in body building mode. However, how much carbs is the qeustion without it affecting my ability to lose fat at the same time? That is something I can fine tune now both in the way that I feel when lifting weights and also seeing the weight loss on the scales. By re introducing carbs slowly in a certain controlled manner, I will be well on the way to understanding what I can get away with in the way of low carbs and having enough to get me through the program.
My weight session is tonight (lower body workout) and I know I won't get through it without carbs so I plan to take a controlled amount just before the session (60 mins) as advised and then take a glutamine tablet afterwards. I'll report my findings to others as I think it is a good thing to share what we are all doing and how it affects fat loss.
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 12:49
The immune system is said to improve...another myth. ;)
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 12:53
I got my Atkins Book from the library. It cost me nothing. Same with the BFL book. In fact even if I had bought the BFL book, it would NOT have lined Bill Phillips pockets. Kids with cancer would have been a little better off...so paying for something is not was occured here. Reading a few books and gaining insites has benefited me and enabled me to understand my body better. Not everything in life is free I'll admit---but sometimes you can get it free if your nice to people---they will lend you the book. If you scoffed at them when they told you they were on the diet and you then ask them sometime later to borow it--well what can you expect---you may need to buy it...
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 13:01
No offense, but I have not yo yo dieted for years---I just slowly put weight on and now I have reached a time where I want to lose it. Frankly I don't care how fast it is--I want it off as long as it is fat. I need to improve my self esteem then I can enjoy my life. I know where my eating habits failed me and how to avoid putting it back on...and I know about yo yo dieting.
I am glad you pointed out that even with any diet, you can gain it back if your don't make life style changes after you have lost the weight though. Thats why we are all here...to teach eachother how to do that...irregardless of what we are doing and how we choose to get rid of fat or get healthy. You can do the fat loss thing slow and build muscle up slow--or you can lose the fat first bulk and THEN adopt a good exercise plan and re introduce foods in moderation. Whichever way you do it, the end results are the same. My body fat is getting in my way of feeling comfortable when I go out and even to the gym! I wear long baggy t-shirts and cannot even get a pair of the modern looking calf length pants on. I ain't buying anymore FAT clothes---and I am sick of wearing stretchy lycra tights to get round the problem. I need fat loss quickly for that reason...even if it is just dropping 1 dress size in two weeks and then getting my body back on track. This I feel will increase my self confidence immensely. I need that for me.
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Author: Ang
Date: 12-10-02 14:16
I agree with you Derrick. The Atkin's is dangerous. I don't care what success stories say. It's a form of advertising. Eating excessive amounts of protein is harmful to the kidneys. The human body has a very hard time eliminating protein byproducts, called urea. If you eat more than 40 grams of protein in one seating you will be putting alot of stress on you kidneys. For those of you that need an article to read in order to back up this argument, pick up an elementary biology text and read the section about kidney function. Anything that puts undue stress on your system is dangerous in my books.
We have to remember that the diet industry is only second in profits to the beauty industry. Advertising does wonders..................Ang
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 15:53
Yeh more myths...someone else cannot be bothered to read the book first either... there is a diference between "Ketosis" and "Ketoacidosis" and it is like Melve says....even the Doctors that roginally skited it are now eating their own hats...that you want to jump in the que is no surprise---I did feel that way, but unfortunately a lot of people are missing out simply because of their level of ignorance..which is where some members of the medical Profession would love to keep you unfortunately again.
Your response is the typical "I've never read Atkins Diet book but I believe all the bull$#1T other people feed me" response. Do me a favour.....go to your library and READ the book before you criticise. Anyone needs to consult their Doctor when going on a diet or exercise of ANy type if they are very over weight or have health conditions. People have had their kidneys tested and had other bone density tests though and it has ALL been proven to be a load of cr@p basically...the studies are out...read em and weap. If you have a kidney problem..no don't do Atkins...but if your ok, you will be quite fine..drink plenty water to flush out carb toxins---the Induction only last 14 days--thats where kidneys have to work harder.
Basically when I go on any "Ethopian" type diet, THEN you can cough your unhealthy Cr@p at me...but until then, learn a few things before you criticise.
This is just a Neolithic one. They got by then---and we can do it now. :) They were stronger, fitter and they did not eat cr@p like half the carbs we eat now. ;)
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 16:03
http://www.welljournal.com/n2/a1.htm
It's only since we started introducing refined foods and other stuff that is processed that men are dying from heart disease and cancers etc. Healthy cavemen were more likely killed or grew old than die of some disease such as they exist in the modern day. Think before you criticise...research and most of all, don't beleive every single thing you read. Investigate for yourselves. What if it was all a BIG FAT LIE? Think about it!
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 16:16
http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/slater/Taubes1.html
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-10-02 17:00
Omelette with bacon, two eggs, finely chopped broccoli and mushrooms and spring onions. I fried them all up in potassium (no.salt) and then whisked the two eggs with a little no.salt and heavy cream and a tiny drop of full fat milk. Delish...
and whats more the lunch will be the same and the dinner and it is so hard to believe that this is actually burning fat not clogging my arteries. The scales do not lie.
Like I said I am on Induction, but I have done my study, and I know exactly what made me gain weight now. I can fix it and keep it off. If you read that article you will see that may people are turning to the Atkins or high protein low carb diets and are commending them...and why they dissed them in the first place.
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Author: melve
Date: 12-10-02 18:02
It's funny that we talk about this because in today's edition of USA Today they talk about the Atkins Diet (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-12-09-life-cover_x.htm). They mention a study done at Duke University where 120 volunteers participated in either a low fat or high fat/low carb diet. After six months, those following the low fat lost 20 pounds while those following the high fat/low carb diet lost 31 pounds during the same time frame. Then the low fat followers cholesterol dropped down 6% while the high fat followers dropped 4%. Not much difference. There is always going to be controversy on this issue. Just like there is controversy on aspartame yet the controversy doesn't bother some people and they chose to still consume it. For the longest we all thought Sweet and Low was bad then a study came out that it was not as bad as once thought. One last thing, Atkins suggest you consume various supplements one being fish oil. I know for a fact that this oil does lower LDL and has many other benefits. Just my two cents.
melve
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Author: Jus me
Date: 12-10-02 20:25
I don't want to get involved in any argumenys, but every time I hear about the "caveman diet", I have to smile. Folks back at that time were middle aged at age 30, and considered very old at 40. Most at age 40 had no teeth left, and didn't survive much longer than that. The evidence is plain in the sites where the first burials occured, that they were old and on the way out at an age before many of us today consider ourselves 'grown up". I would agree with anyone who questions the wisdom of eating processed foods full of trans fat and chemicals, but I don't think the "caveman diet" was particularly great either. I agree with Derrick (I think it was he) who holds that a healthy diet includes veggies (a cartload in my case), fruit, reasonable amounts of lean protein, and whole grains (oats, barley, rye for me.) I'm a fit, active 54 year old, and the excess 25 lbs I successfully lost last year was put on after I quit smoking successfully 4 years ago, and I overdid candy and other sugary foods during my nicotine withdrawal. For me, sugar is something BAD (causes spikes in blood sugar and rushes of insulin), "good" fat is OK, and non fat dairy products are OK in small amounts. I realise that everyone's metabolism is different, and that we all respond differently to different foodstuffs, but I will never be convinced that early man (and woman) sitting huddled in their caves had an optimum diet!! I would guess my grandparent's diet was closer to a good one, and since they worked hard, there wasn't an excess pound in weight to be seen! I know nothing about the Atkins diet, so have no comment on that, except to say that I think eating large amounts of protein would age me faster! Have a good week.
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Author: Ang
Date: 12-10-02 20:28
You response is a little hostile I must say. Do we have to get into the 'ones own opinion ' thread again. Maybe you can find an Atkin's board to start posting on instead. This is practical weight loss, not 'possibly' harmful weightloss. I do believe that you were one of the people calling Gym Machine patronizing and condesending? Read your above post. Thats condesending. And, I do know my stuff. I happen to be getting my MA is paleoepidemiology. I would appreciate if you, a person that doesn't know me, would refrain from calling me ignorant. I would not call you ignorant. If your not happy with the response your getting to your new intrest then go elsewhere......Ang
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Author: julie
Date: 12-10-02 21:08
Amen to that. I personally am sick and tired of you (Anne Marie) consistently posting line after line after line. You yell at people who have a difference in opinion from you. And then you call someone ignorant for not believing what you believe. There will FOREVER be many ways to "diet" and there is ONLY one way to gain it back. I agree with ang that maybe you need to go to a "pro atkins" web site. Because as for now many of us are terribly sick of the whining and endless posts. Maybe it would be easier to get up and DO SOMETHING instead of complaining and name calling and "researching" on the computer all day. AND THAT is just MY opinion!!!!
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-11-02 00:26
Thanks for posting this Melve. I was hoping that people would go to that link atleast and read the newyork Times article. Ahh well, you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink huh?!?
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Author: GymMachine
Date: 12-11-02 00:30
some good info, but the studies are extremely suss
1)A study of 120 overweight volunteers, conducted at Duke University Medical School and funded by a grant from the Robert C. Atkins Foundation, had patients follow either the Atkins diet or an American Heart Association low-fat plan. Atkins dieters also took multivitamins and fish oil capsules, as the book recommends. After six months, low-fat dieters had lost 20 pounds; the Atkins dieters had lost 31 pounds, and they were more likely to adhere to the diet.
the first study was funded by atkins...strike 1...that means atkins pays the researches to overlook the study and overlook any results that dont support their goals before they are published...think about the supp companys who claim their little pills ad '200%' more gains - same thing here, its in-house testing and twisting the truth....also, their activity levels, calorie ranges etc etc...on what basis can they assume the atkins folk are more likely to stick to the diet?
2)In another study, researchers at the University of Cincinnati had 53 obese women, ages 29 to 59, follow either the Atkins diet or a diet that got 30% of calories from fat. In contrast, Atkins dieters typically get about 60% of calories from fat, 30% from protein and 10% from carbohydrates. After six months, the Atkins dieters lost an average 18.5 pounds; the other group, 8.5. Both groups had normal cholesterol and experienced similar improvements in blood fats, says lead researcher Bonnie Brehm, assistant professor of nutrition in the College of Nursing.
The second exert (the one in point form, above) gives a study with little detail - the atkins group dropped more weight thats about it - however did atkins fund that study? the sample size was very small - it was only obese women and not men - was any exercise taken within the two groups - did both groups stay within a calorie deficit?...just how obese were they? the no atkins dieters may have had 30% of their diet from fat but what about protein and carb makeup?..and most IMPORTANT - what % of the weight loss is fat/muscle/water
You would need to look at the actual study to get some of these answers.
Like i said im not knocking Atkins, people do lose weight on it, hence its popularity...but anything that makes vision blurred, nausea, sickness, dizziness within the first few days of the diet is not something im willing to go through...even if the claims were true in the unlikely event that atkins dieters did lose more weight i dont think i could stick to it...and even if it is something we are taught as bad food, the bacon/pork/cream thing just wouldnt sit right in my gut and i mentally would feel like i would be gaining weight....plus from a personal level, i need carbs (glycogen) to not only fuel my exercise, but to store in muscle so i can keep gaining muscle.
Anyway i got nothing against atkins dieters, if it works for them and they feel safe, then kudos to them....just on a side note does atkins prescribe any exercise during his diet? i have heard he is not a huge advocator on it...he doesnt condone it but basically gives the impression that you dont have to exercise - if this is true, then he knows your not going to get optimal peformance from extremely low carb - i dunno maybe the lack of exercise is what appeals to people because they are lazy and look for a quick fix which can keep you sedentary? i dont know, i dont know what his thoughts are on exercise, please tell me if im wrong
P.S - not suggesting atkins people are lazy but maybe if he isnt so big on exercise this could have something to do with its huge popularity - or does he advocate exercise? i dunno
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Author: Anne-Marie
Date: 12-11-02 00:44
Look at it logically...the government in the US and the Health Dept are dead against the diet anyway. It's like the blind leading the bloody blind here...and even with all this low fat advice and the products on the market, people are STILL obese and have heart disease. the rates are higher than they have ever been. by all means dwell in ignorance, but please quit dragging other folks in that direction with you.
I can see your desperate to save some grace here, but sooner or later people are going to learn the lesson the hard way if you are pushing them to the carbs all the time. You have no logical thinking do you? It harps back to the hunter gatherer here... they simply did not eat the low fat high carb diet did they? That and the studies are clear...no matter who the hell did them...one things for sure the governement is hardly gping to spend money on a study to have independant findingd becauese they spent the last 30 years slating the guy and advising people to eat the low fat high carb crap! They will look like they are changing their tunes...that's the only reason an official study is not done..but like it says in that article, some serious questions need answering about why it has taken so long for studies TO be done. All along they felt it was impossible to lose weight on a high fat high protein diet and then they mixed up ketosis with ketoacidosis and there was some serious scaremongering amongst the public. Despite all that because people tried the diet and succeeded in losing weight and keeping it off, the book sold out and has been around for 30 years.
I thought that people were open minded here? Obviously not...because it is obvious you are all carb addicted and cannot fight the addiction.
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Author: GymMachine
Date: 12-11-02 01:05
is this directed at me? if so
1) i dont push people into carbs at all..i already said i dont eat bread and rice myself
2) people may still be obese due to reasons that dont include being 'force fed the low fat high carb' diet stuff...people are obese, probably because junk food is tastier, quicker, cheaper and makes for an easy dinner - plus the sedentary lifestyle - i dont think the government is at blame here, atleast not fully
3) im not draggin anyone into ignorance...like i said before, for those on atkins i hope they do well and kudos to them for their weight loss...believe it or not this included you!
4) the studies are not clear - they dont give you much - after being in university for 3 years and my girlfriend just finishing her psychology degree we are force fed studies on a regular basis...and yeah we have to critique them because if you find the flaws you know how accurate studies can be...and for those who know the reliabilities of studies in any field, know that a study that is funded by a company for their own sake is highly likely going to produce biased results....their are so many ifs and buts in that little exert it isnt funny really...who knows maybe it is a legit study, one would only know when you look at the documents...but when they have a small sample size of obese women and dont even tell you the diet of the 'carb' people, you must admit you have got to question that and alot of other things...especially the make up of the weight loss, exercise patterns, how many calories each person was fed, the list goes on.
3) an 'official' study with no ties to atkins and that has more suitable control methods etc etc probably has been done for all i know.
4) we are open minded and we arent all carb addicted..i think you are getting frustrated and just need some time to cool off a little.
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Author: Ang
Date: 12-11-02 07:57
Thanks Julie for posting. I can't believe that nobody else has anything to say about this...........Ang
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Author: Jus me
Date: 12-11-02 09:29
I don't want to get involved in this snipping and sniping about the Atkins Diet, since I haven't read the book, and haven't investigated it, since don't want to eat large amounts of protein and fat. However, that said, this is getting ridiculous, since this is no longer about the Atkins Diet, and it's not about Practical Weight Loss either. The exchanges seem to be turning toward personal attacks, and these posts are a bit nasty. In the post I just read for instance, you're trying to have it both ways. First, you wrote:
"people are STILL obese and have heart disease. the rates are higher than they have ever been."
And that is certainly true in the US where over 60% of the people are said to be overweight. Further down, however, you wrote:
"Despite all that because people tried the diet and succeeded in losing weight and keeping it off, the book sold out and has been around for 30 years."
Hmmm, is so many people "succeeded....in keeping it off", and the book sold out, why are so many people, as you yourself said, overweight?? If diets worked, most of us would not be on this board, and we'd have nothing to talk about! Many of us have tried diets of one kind or another, and we've pretty much proved to ourselves that they don't work. It seems to me that our modern life style is mostly to blame, and snipping and sniping at GymMachine won't change that...I believ that it's stuff like the super-size portions we're served at fast food places, and the junk food we see all over the place that is the real enemy, and the fact that many of us are soooooo busy that fast food seems like a good time-saving option. We're here to support and help each other, and GymMachine does his best to do just that, although I have disagreed with him at times. If we all had the exact same opinions, there would be no point posting to this board, and a "frequently asked questions section" would serve us all perfectly well. What works for one person might not work for another, so it is interesting to hear about different ways of eating, and other people's exercise routines, and the last time I looked, everyone on here was welcome to state their opinion without fear of being insulted. None of us are ignorant, and some of the nicest people on the Internet hang out here, so can we get back to supporting each other...Jus me
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Author: julie
Date: 12-11-02 12:19
ANNE MARIE
I certainly find your posts extremely offensive, even though they are not directed totally at me, you do call me "ignorant" and whatever other choice of words you have for someone who does not have your opinion. You are ten times more criticial and mean hearted than your accusers. I will ask you once again to either keep your mean spirited comments to yourself and your "pro atkins posts" to a limit or to go somewhere else. People come here for SUPPORT and a PRACTICAL Weight LOSS discussion. Though you are more than welcome to post your opinion there is no point to getting nasty about people who do not believe what you believe. Eat Less and Exercise = Losing weight. It really is that simple. Don't bring your negativism and your condescending to this board.
MELANIE
I am curious to know if this stuff can be stopped. Since you are the owner of the site. You have some say as to what can be posted. Please let me know if there is some kind of solution to this madness. I truly want people to know (as I am sure you do) how to lose weight sensibly, exercise sensibly, and that there are nice, unselfish, uncondescending people here to support them. I can not tell you how much I have enjoyed this site. However, there does need to be a limit to the criticism. Thank you for your time!!!!!
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